8. "What is Middleware Support?" (really all about)
===================================================

Panel Members: Joseph Dada, Alistair Duncan, Steve Fisher, Jens Jensen, 
Yibiao Li, Andrew McNab, Alexander Soroko, Graeme Stewart, Stefan Stonjek, 
Owen Synge

[recorded by: Greig Cowan]

Panel Member statements
=======================

Owen Synge, RAL
---------------
Slide - From development to production

CVS -> Packaging -> testing -> deployment cert -> distribution (apt) 
-> development support -> site support (i.e. Owen and Jiri) 
-> SFTs -> end user

Joseph Dada, Manchester
-----------------------
Security middleware, using web and grid services to unify
disparate systems. Different policies at different sites.

Graeme Stewart, Glasgow
-----------------------
Data Management support. What is my role? Value in GridPP is people. Support
people should be experts in their field. Who are these people, where
can I contact them? Support should provide overview documentation to
tell you what s/w should be doing. HowTo's, going beyond LCG install
guide. Walking through an install. Keep track of known problems,
things YAIM does wrong. Support people can become involved in
planning. i.e. storage are picking a few sites to roll out SRM. LCG
m/w testbed to improve quality of release. We want release just to
work.  Support should be phone/email away and possibly site
visits. Want feedback from sites.

Alistair Duncan, RAL
--------------------
R-GMA team. Supports install/config of s/w by supporting developers of
yaim developers. Support sysadmins by using mailing lists (lcg-rollout,
tb-support). Support developers who use s/w to write their own
apps. Proactive in monitoring s/w that runs on LCG. Various mechs to
do this (ganglia, performance scripts). Problems get resolved before
they become fatal. Providing out of hour support if required.

Jens Jensen, RAL 
---------------- 
Storage support. Support is a number of different things: docs,
replicating bugs, improving install methods contributions to SRM
protocol. Need to be pro-active and seek out people needing
help. Mailing list and phone conferences for support. Sites need to
provide effort to get SRM operational. Wiki docs. Planning ahead to
see what is on the horizon so that the group can be prepared for new
things.

Stefan Stonjek, Oxford
----------------------
database m/w project. You wrote it you support it - probably not
the best model.

Alexander Soroko, Oxford
------------------------
ganga developer - user int to expt tools for analysis
(ATLAS/LHCb). Talking about uses of ganga. Provide extensive testing
of the tools they develop. Give some feedback re: interfaces.

Yibiao Li, Manchester
---------------------
model to move files between GridPP servers.

Andrew McNab, Manchester
------------------------
Security m/w. GridSite and wiki. Hardest of support issues is how
to extract useful docs from developers (not just bug fixes). Wiki makes it
easier to write informal docs by using input from mailing lists. Would
like to see more people getting involved in this. Docs via accretion.

-----------------

DC: gLite test bed

JG: feedback to GS. EGEE2 - dedicated testing/certification system
before a release. Imperial will be getting involved in that. Chance
for GridPP support personnel getting involved in this testing.

SC: Agreed that using wiki was good idea. Periodically getting
together to produce something more concrete.

SS: need some structure to make sure wiki doesn't get out of control.

GS: need some moderators for the wiki.

OS: sysadmin questions not the same questions that were in the minds
of the developers. They were thinking more about the internal structures
of the s/w. Process of sysadmins asking questions and it being
moderated by some experts.

JG: developers not getting correct requirements for s/w.

AM: good if people have put some rough recipe into the wiki to get
yourself started. Informal space in which to describe things.

SB: bad if the wiki is incorrect.

JJ: need someone to move what is in the wiki to some sort of more
formal docs (LaTeX or DocBook) which has been properly checked and
signed off by the developers.